The Raconteur: Jean Robey, MD

The CE experience for this Podcast is powered by CMEfy – click here to reflect and earn credits: https://earnc.me/zi5zt5

Jean Robey is an Arizona Flinn Scholar Class of 1992 who was admitted to the six year MD program at Louisiana State Medical Center at the age of 15 but entertained instead the more traditional and local route receiving her medical doctorate from the University of Arizona Health Science Center in 2000 where she was a recipient of the Dean Scholarship. She completed her Surgical Internship at the Medical University of South Carolina, then her Internal Medicine Residency and Nephrology Fellowship thereafter at the same institution. She returned to Arizona in 2010 and has been in private practice serving the fit and accomplished seniors of Sun City/Sun City West within multiple hospital systems including Banner, Abrazo, Dignity Health, and Honor Health. She is a writer and also an active mentor to students seeking to explore and enter the medical doctoral world with passion and purpose.

MD Coaches, LLC provides leadership and executive coaching for physicians by physicians to overcome burnout, transition throughout your career, develop as a leader or meet your individual goals. Remember, you are not in this alone. Reach out to us today!

---

Are you a doctor struggling to provide the best care for your patients while dealing with financial and caregiving matters out of the scope of your practice?

Do you find yourself scrambling to keep up with the latest resources and wish there was an easier way?

Finally, our Virtual Health and Financial Conference for Caregivers is here!

This conference helps you and your patients enlist the best strategies around health care resources and the best financial steps for your patients to take while navigating care. You don’t have to go home feeling frustrated and helpless because you couldn’t connect your patients with the best services.

In just 90 minutes, our VIP Live Roundtable will answer your questions and be the lifeline that helps your patients put together an effective caregiving plan.Find out more at Jeanniedougherty.com and click on Conference for Caregivers VIP.

---

Dr. Jean Robey

Dr. Robey’s Prescription for Success:

Number 1: Part of the success in medicine is to allow for the emotions and then to learn how to set them aside and be the sober co-pilot.

Number 2: Be self-aware, and help others to become self-aware.

Number 3: Don’t regret the things that you do.

Connect with Dr. Roby:

Dr. Jean Robey on FacebookDr. Jean Robey’s Blog – Ethos of MedicineDr. Jean Robey email – peelingcelery@gmail.com

Notable quotes from Dr. Roby’s interview:

I love medicine because I’m not under the heel of debt.

And I’m so proud of my profession and the people that I work with, but doctoring is a kind of complex coaching.

a good surgeon isn’t a good talker, a good surgeon is a good doer.

Access the Show Transcript Here

175: The Raconteur: Jean Robey, MD

Dr. Jean Roby recounts her family’s journey from Vietnam to the US, emphasizing resilience and determination in her medical career influenced by family history.

2024, Dr. Randy CookRx for Success Podcast

Produced by Clawson Solutions Group (www.csolgroup.com)

Generated Shownotes

Chapters

0:00:00 A Constant Energy that Never Lets Me Down

0:00:14 Urgent Call for Dr. Cook to the Operating Room

0:00:31 Welcome to the Prescription for Success podcast!

0:07:25 A split-second decision: escaping Vietnam by helicopter

0:10:32 Shrimp boat adventures and a broken femur

0:13:31 Incredible childhood in Shreveport with a great school system

0:15:40 Virtual Caregiver Conference: Streamlining Healthcare and Financial Resources

0:16:33 Introduction to Rx for Success with Rhonda Crowe

0:17:36 Introducing Physician Outlook magazine

0:18:46 Early Academic Promise and Scholarships

0:20:38 The Decision to Stay in High School

0:29:30 Applying to Medical School and the Stress of Waiting

0:38:58 Dr. Stones – Mentorship and Valuing Excellence

0:48:25 Choosing Internal Medicine and Subspecializing in Nephrology

0:57:29 Discovering Writing Talent and the Ethos of Medicine

1:04:14 The Power of Stories in Medicine

1:08:21 Personal Prescriptions for Success in Medicine

1:13:08 Show Conclusion and Call to Action

Long Summary

In this episode, we have a fascinating conversation with Dr. Jean Roby, a nephrologist from Arizona. We begin by discussing Dr. Roby’s family history, focusing on her father’s journey from Vietnam to the United States. We learn about her father’s decision to become a pilot during the war, which allowed him to increase his chances of survival and learn English. Dr. Roby shares the gripping story of her family being rescued by a helicopter during the war, and their subsequent journey to Louisiana where she was eventually born. She talks about the challenges her family faced, including various jobs and owning a shrimp boat before settling in Phoenix, Arizona.

Dr. Roby reflects on her childhood in Shreveport, Louisiana, where she had an excellent education in a magnet school. She recalls the dedication of her African American teachers who supported her academic success. At the age of 15, Dr. Roby received a prestigious Flynn scholarship for her achievements, which allowed her to explore her interests and travel. She shares the emotional experience of the scholarship interview and how it ultimately provided financial security for her education.

We discuss the impact of her family’s history on her journey, and how her passion and energy have propelled her forward. Dr. Roby believes that gifted individuals have a unique way of thinking and can bring innovation and compassion to medicine. Despite the challenges in the admissions process, she was accepted into medical school at the Medical University of South Carolina, marking a pivotal chapter in her journey.

Throughout the conversation, we gain insights into Dr. Roby’s personal and professional journey, highlighting the importance of resilience, determination, and the support of those around you.

Brief Summary

In this episode, we hear the fascinating story of Dr. Jean Roby, a nephrologist from Arizona. She shares her family’s journey from Vietnam to the United States and reflects on the resilience and determination that propelled her through challenges. Dr. Roby emphasizes the importance of support and highlights the impact of her family’s history on her career in medicine.

Tags

episode, Dr. Jean Roby, nephrologist, Arizona, family’s journey, Vietnam, United States, resilience, determination, challenges, support, family history, career in medicine

Transcript

A Constant Energy that Never Lets Me Down

[0:00] I think it is kind of an energy, right? And I have it, I have it, and it just thankfully hasn’t ever really waned or let me down.

[0:08] Music.

Urgent Call for Dr. Cook to the Operating Room

[0:14] Paging Dr. Cook. Paging Dr. Cook.

Dr. Cook, you’re wanted in the OR. Dr. Cook, you’re wanted in the OR.

[0:20] Music.

Welcome to the Prescription for Success podcast!

[0:31] Welcome to the Prescription for Success podcast with your host, Dr. Randy Cook.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Prescription for Success.

I’m Dr. Randy Cook, your host for the podcast, which is a production of MD Coaches, providing leadership and executive coaching for physicians by physicians To overcome burnout, transition your career, develop as a leader or whatever your goal might be, visit MD Coaches on the web at mymdcoaches.com because you’re not in this alone.

And don’t forget that CME credit is available when you listen with us.

Just look for CMFI in the show notes to learn how. My guest today is a very busy nephrologist serving multiple hospital systems in suburban Phoenix, Arizona.

She is also an uncommonly talented writer as well as a passionate mentor for young students with an interest in a healthcare career.

So let’s hear my conversation with Dr. Jean Roby. Music.

[1:44] Music.

[1:50] Today on the program, we’re going to be talking with a really fascinating lady, Dr.

Jean Roby, who is a nephrologist out in Arizona.

What an incredible story she has to tell, and she has so many talents that I’m really excited to talk about today.

So the first thing I want to say is, Dr.

Jean Roby, thank you so much for being a guest with us today.

I’m so flattered that you took the time to come and visit with us.

Oh, thank you so much, Randy, for having me.

So as we always do, let’s just start at the beginning.

We have spoken with a few individuals who made their way to this country from Vietnam.

And although you didn’t exactly come here yourself from Vietnam, you sort of got here on the way.

So let’s begin with that story of how your family got here. Yeah, so I’m actually first generation Vietnamese American.

[2:54] And, you know, the running joke is that I’m the celebratory conception, right?

So my father was orphaned when he was 19.

And he was a single child. So he went to go live with his aunt and her large family.

But at 19, when the landscape of Vietnam looked in turmoil, he decided the strategic thing to do would be to test and become a pilot because he felt like if he was a foot soldier, he would he would die.

So I always felt like that was such an incredible and mature decision on his part.

Pretty smart to yeah like really because you know in vietnam when you um articulate you have to test and somehow they gauge your acumen they gauge where you fit and that’s that’s sort of a typical thing in asian countries for them to figure out so he had obviously the the right intellect and.

[3:48] And the right problem-solving skills and stuff. I think he would have made a champion physician, but he ended up trying to strategically outlive the war.

So by becoming a pilot, he was allowed to come to the States and train.

So he trained in Arkansas.

And so one of my first memories is seeing a plaque he had that said he graduated from this pilot school in Arkansas.

But that also allowed him to learn English.

And then, of course, that was very, very strategic of him to have those skills.

Yeah, that’s a big plus. Yeah, huge.

So after he enlisted, he met my mom, and they ended up having my older sister.

And she was about three when really the climate changed dramatically, like, like overnight, my dad says, and suddenly it was over, like it was over.

[4:34] Everyone had to leave. And there was all this hope that a lot of the officers that had fought alongside Americans would be able to leave.

But quite frankly, and sadly, only about a fifth of them or so left.

But as a way of exiting, they had to very quickly, very decisively get their family and themselves out.

And so it was late in life that I actually knew my father’s story.

He didn’t really talk about it. He’s sort of stoic and private and I think pretty traumatized because he had to leave friends or watch friends die.

And so he and some other officers were able to commandeer a helicopter, take that, refuel, get my mother and my sister. Wait, wait, wait a minute now.

[5:19] So these guys get together and they say, why don’t we steal a helicopter and get out of here? Well, I mean, it was their helicopter.

But, yeah, so actually it’s – he speaks so humbly about it.

But, yeah, it’s their helicopter. It’s the helicopter they fly.

And, you know, in all honesty, they’re flying it to drop Agent Orange and deploy officers and people, too.

But what they do is they take this helicopter and they have to drop someone off at an airfield. And then they refuel.

And that’s it. That’s all the time they have to kind of decide what they’re going to do.

But just by having that conversation with the people who were in on it, you know, he ran the risk of being arrested and court-martialed and possibly executed. Well, no, I mean, everyone was doing it.

It was just sort of like desperate, just absolutely desperate.

Right. Like and at that point, it’s just just trying to get out because the whole thing is imploding.

So nobody was going to tell on you because they were trying to do the same thing.

Nobody even knows what’s going on. Everything is just chaos.

Right. And it’s hard for us to know.

It’s really hard to conceptualize, I think, because we get notices and we see things coming and, you know, we don’t have desperation like this.

And still to this day, I can’t really even conceptualize what was going on around him.

He just tries to describe it the best he can before he just mentally shuts down over the matter. But like he gets he somehow is.

[6:43] If you can visualize it, on this helicopter, he’s somehow strategically picked up my mom and my sister.

There’s yet another spouse on there. There’s a couple of guys.

I don’t know who they are.

He obviously knows who they are. They mean something to him.

They drop someone off because apparently they have to drop another officer off.

And then they refuel. And really, I think we began talking about this because my mother was having an emotional time leaving the home that we had in Arizona for a different one.

And she was kind of recanting how she just innocently said something like, I’m always leaving places.

And then we went to the root cause about this. And then he says that they had this split second decision to make.

A split-second decision: escaping Vietnam by helicopter

[7:25] And he had turned to my mom and said, are you going or not?

Because he’s going to go and he’s not sure because she’s not understanding what’s happening and this is her homeland.

And I said, what did mom do? And And he says, oh, you know, mom just looks at me like, what is she going to do?

And then that’s it. The decision’s made. So they fly the helicopter to the aircraft carrier.

And then they push the helicopter off. And you hear these stories, but you don’t even realize that they are very, very personable stories.

And so then they push this helicopter off in order to make more room for the people in the aircraft carrier.

You know, Jean, you’re exactly right.

What you’re describing, it does sound unbelievable.

[8:07] But for most folks in this country, certainly of my age, we watched that happen on television.

And I have to say the picture that I had in my mind was, my goodness, how can these people even have the strength and the courage to do all this?

But to hear you tell it, it makes it even more unbelievable.

No, it’s just sort of unfathomable what it took to kind of make these very flash decisions. and really just move through a moment, right? Because they don’t know what’s next.

They’re just doing what’s right there in front of them. And really their design is to try to save as many people as possible.

And so they just do that. And my dad’s very principled, and so I could see him doing this to get as many people onto the aircraft carrier as possible.

And then it deploys. But they head towards the Philippines, and I think they were turned away. And then they go to Guam and they hang out at a base in uncertainty for like three months.

And it’s in that time that a lot of churches are reaching out to sponsor families.

And I don’t know how we’re selected. I don’t know where we land exactly.

But, you know, we end up in Louisiana.

And en route, somehow I’m conceived so that literally within a month or so of landing in Louisiana, I’m born.

Surprise. Yep.

[9:32] It’s a good way to become a citizen. Thank you.

Yep, exactly. So here I am. And the running joke is two things.

One, that I’m, you know, the conception of celebration, but also that I can become president, you know, because I was born here.

I hadn’t thought about that. Yeah. So there’s a lot of pressure on me, right?

But I actually was born on Ronald Reagan’s birthday. So there was all the signs, you know, that I should be president.

[9:58] Which is not too late. But in any case, yeah, my parents set up shop there and there’s a deacon at a first Baptist church and he and his family really take us in and they’re, they’re incredible, just absolutely incredible.

And their family all live on a property.

And it’s like, there’s a grandmother that lives on the property.

There’s the sons that live on the property.

You know, everybody’s the second or the third of their, of their namesake.

Well, they put a mobile home on that property and we lived there until my father’s able to purchase a home.

And then during the first parts, they’re doing different jobs.

Shrimp boat adventures and a broken femur

[10:32] Eventually my father and another co-sponsor go in on a shrimp boat.

So we have a shrimp boat for a while at Corpus Christi and we would go there at times to do the shrimp boat.

Well, then my dad slips and breaks his femur. So no more shrimp boat.

And then back to Shreveport, now we’re doing the AT&T factories.

And then at some some point, my father decides he’s going back to college, or he’s going to, you know, he’s going to do college.

And I, and it’s such a strange thought, okay, because he’s in his 30s.

He’s got two kids, it’s the early 80s.

The whole thing is just very progressive to think that a family can go through college.

And so then he finds this young man who’s going through college, he’s Vietnamese, and he lets this man live in our house, you know, rent free, we feed him.

And he basically takes classes and and helps my father get ready for classes and then my father follows him through the classes and a year after my father enrolls and does his first year my mother enrolls and begins her journey and they chose a major based on just ads in a newspaper so my dad has strategically looked up a newspaper to see what were wanted ads he found yep computer science because that was up and.

[11:47] And so I just remember him circling all these wanted ads for computer programmers.

And so then he decides to major in computer programming. My mom then also does computer programming.

They go through college in four years. My mother has two pregnancies during that time. So that’s also very unheard of.

And I see her walking across the graduation stage pregnant.

You know, the whole thing is just surreal. real. So after graduation, we end up going on vacation to Arizona to visit my uncle and we never turned back.

And my mom, you know, says again, you know, I leave places and I never go back.

And so here we are in Arizona.

[12:25] My dad ends up working for the city of Phoenix as a programmer and my mom ends up working for the state of Arizona as a programmer.

So they just went out there for a visit and I mean, it kind of sounds like maybe they were at least casually looking looking around?

No, not at all. Like we were just visiting because we just went to see my uncle.

He hadn’t seen him in a good, you know, 15 years or so.

So we’re at my uncle’s house and he’s got at the time, three boys and one on the way.

So they’ve got five, almost six in this tiny little brick house.

That’s 1300 square feet.

And then we come in with our horde, which is five and one coming.

And so we all live in this house for the summer and then school year comes around and we’re not leaving.

And they just decide that they’re going to stay. It really wasn’t planned because my dad would go back and pack up the house and get it sold and everything.

So they just kind of make these dramatic moves and they’re comfortable with it. And what age were you at that point?

I was 11. I was 11. Okay. But my time in Louisiana was incredible.

Incredible childhood in Shreveport with a great school system

[13:31] Shreveport was was the small town that was just perfect. It had four seasons.

It had this amazing magnet school. And once in a while, I’ll meet someone that had kids in the same school that I went to, and they’ll tell me how amazing that school system is.

But they had this magnet school there, and they were very keen on picking up intelligent students and pushing them through.

So I had this great childhood where everyone that I met just wished me well and helped me out and pushed me me forward and handed me off to the next mentor.

Well, you’re right in the territory that I had some curiosity about, and that is you, and I’m going to ask you to talk about that in just a moment, but you certainly became a highly visible and very successful scholar, even in your early teens.

And if I’m reading this right, the foundation for that was actually…

[14:25] Uh underway when you were in south louisiana yeah so i mean like shreveport was supposed to be very backwards or racist or rural yeah and it really wasn’t it was incredible and it continues to be like very progressive very forward thinking for education and stuff they had these magnet schools that were math and science or music and everything every program was so dedicated to excellence and and stuff.

And they didn’t, they really did not seem to have any racial disparity.

All my teachers were African American. They were incredibly gifted in teaching and child development and really astute.

Like they knew if a kid was a little different and learned differently, it took no time at all for them to find that I was gifted or figure out what I was gifted in and put me in places where I didn’t waste time and had constructive feedback. Everything was super super positive.

Sounds like you have a knack for being in the right place at the right time.

I don’t know. I think it really was just sort of surreal and a blessing and definitely something was looking after all of us because it just kind of, people would just show up and want to give us things and do things and just propel us forward.

Virtual Caregiver Conference: Streamlining Healthcare and Financial Resources

[15:40] Are you a doctor struggling to provide the best care for your patients while dealing with financial and caregiving matters out of the scope of your practice?

Do you find yourself scrambling to keep up with the latest resources and wish there was an easier way?

Then this virtual caregiver conference will save you time, money, and sanity by giving you all the resources and information your patients need in one place.

This conference helps you and your patients enlist the best strategies around healthcare resources and the best financial steps for your patients while navigating caregiving situations.

You don’t have to go home feeling frustrated and helpless because you couldn’t connect your patients with the best services.

Find out more at rxforsuccesspodcast.com slash conference or click the link in the show notes.

We look forward forward to seeing you at the Caregiver Conference.

Introduction to Rx for Success with Rhonda Crowe

[16:33] Hi, I’m Rhonda Crowe, founder and CEO for MD Coaches.

Here on Rx for Success, we interview a lot of great medical professionals on how they grew their careers, how they overcame challenges, and how they handle day-to-day work.

I really hope you’re getting a lot of great information.

But if you’re looking for an answer to a specific problem, problem management or administration challenge, or if you’re feeling just a bit burnt out, like maybe you chose the wrong career, well, then there’s a faster way to get the help you need.

No, it’s not counseling. It’s coaching.

Rx for Success is produced by MD Coaches, a team of physicians who have been where you are.

I know you’re used to going it alone, but you don’t have to.

Get the support you need today.

Visit us at mymdcoaches.com to schedule your complimentary consultation.

Again, that’s mymdcoaches.com because you’re not in this alone.

Introducing Physician Outlook magazine

[17:36] We’ll get back to our interview in just a moment. But right now, I want to tell you a little bit about Physician Outlook.

If you haven’t discovered this remarkable magazine, please do so very soon.

It was created by physicians for physicians to showcase the intersection between clinical and non-clinical interests, whether it’s writing, painting, cooking, politics, and dozens of other topics.

Physician Outlook gives a physician perspective. It’s available online and in print.

It’s really unique among physician lifestyle magazines.

And like the Prescription for Success podcast, Physician Outlook amplifies the voice of any physician who has something to say. It also engages patients who still believe in physician-led, team-based care.

And Prescription for Success listeners can get three months free when you enter our promo code RX4SUCCESS and select the monthly option at checkout.

That’s a really great deal on this stunning publication.

And now let’s get back to today’s interview. you.

[18:42] Music.

Early Academic Promise and Scholarships

[18:46] Well, bringing the focus back to you, it sounds like that about the time that you wound up in Arizona, you were beginning to show considerable promise as an outstanding scholar.

[19:02] And in fact, at the age of 15, were awarded a prestigious Flynn scholarship.

You want to tell us some of the details about that?

Yeah, so it’s actually interesting.

I took college classes when I was in eighth grade, ninth grade, and did just anything I could and traveled as much as I could.

Anyone that would let me or sponsor me, I would. My parents always try to help me raise money or try to sponsor me in some part to travel if I wanted.

I was just endlessly curious, right?

So I at one point applied for Louisiana State Medical Center as their six-year program.

[19:42] And that was the last time I ever went back and met up with.

For the MD degree. You’re talking about the six-year MD.

Exactly. So I went back. And, you know, technically it’s for residents, right?

But because we had lived there, they were going to allow me an interview.

And then I was granted the scholarship.

And there was all this arrangement being made to have me go back there at 14, 15 to go ahead and start medical school and, you know, undergraduate school. Right.

The Decision to Stay in High School

[20:38] I want to stay in high school. And I remember them saying very calmly, like they weren’t angry at me.

Why? What for? And I said, I want to read things that I’ll never get a chance to read again.

Something about childhood just seemed to still be possible.

And if I went to college and med school, it would be something I would have to let go of.

And so my mother championed me, right? So it was just one of those moments where she’s the one that’s championing me.

And I stay another year. And during that year, I just had this incredible time.

I was doing a lot of speech and debate.

I was reading a lot. I was just satisfying my curiosity and exploring things.

And I then got told about the Flynn Scholarship. And that’s out of the Flynn Foundation here in Arizona.

And so I applied. And I remember, you know, it was very competitive.

I had just the funniest application, I think, because everything was handwritten and kind of, by many standards, sort of sloppy.

Because I don’t have a typewriter. I don’t have anyone to tell me.

[21:38] How to do this better. It was just kind of, I don’t know, if I was to see this application now, I don’t know what I would make of it, you know.

And even like one of the letters of recommendations, and she was a great, she was a really great science teacher, Mrs. Thompson.

But her letter recommendation was also handwritten. It was just bizarre.

And so, you know, I get the interview, and it’s really kind of an overwhelming interview.

And the fact that my father drove me, I didn’t know what to wear.

I feel like I don’t really match.

[22:08] I go in there, there’s this whole panel. There’s like eight of them, I think. And they’re so grown up.

And they’re, you know, they just have like real positions and real jobs and real titles.

And, you know, they’re wearing real clothes. And it just seems really overwhelming, intimidating.

And I’m sitting on one side of the table. They’re just asking me questions.

And I’m just answering the best I can. And at some point, they asked me about my family or what means something to me that I had written about.

And I had written about my grandmother.

Because, you know, during this whole time, my parents were working so hard to sponsor them over.

And this is my mother’s family because my dad’s orphaned. And so my mother’s family was finally sponsored over, which itself is an amazing story.

And that happened the last year of high school. And I’m there during that time because I’ve, again, you know, deferred the medical school route. out.

And so I’m there while they’re there. And so at that point, we’re all living in our house and they’re, my dad’s built all these bunk beds, right?

And there’s like 14 of them. So 14 of them, and then the seven of us at that point, all live in this house. Okay.

And so they’re asking me about what that feels like, what that means.

And, and I just start crying because it means so much to me to have these roots, you know, and to really know where I’m, I’m coming from and identify with.

With because I didn’t have that and then I and then someone hands me a handkerchief.

[23:34] And and then I’m so overwhelmed that I try to steal it you know or so they so the interview is not going very well I don’t think because you know the ER doctor that handed me the handkerchief I mean who uses handkerchiefs anyways it’s like asking for it back and I’m I feel so bad that I’m trying to steal this handkerchief and you know I leave and then my dad he’s he’s so proud of me me is so happy.

And he takes me to this restaurant and we don’t, we don’t go to restaurants.

So he takes me to a restaurant and we order food and he’s just having this great dinner with me.

And he orders duck flambé, right? Like things caught on fire.

He’s eating it. I don’t think they burned the cognac properly.

So like tipsy, the whole thing is just hilarity, right?

He’s just so happy. And it’s weird because, I mean, he never felt bad that I gave up that scholarship, but then this one who knows who knows but he doesn’t care he’s just happy and so then months goes by then then I find out that I’m you know in the semi-finals and the finals and, Then I get this scholarship, and I just don’t even know what it means, you know, to have this scholarship.

[24:39] It’s such a tremendous honor to have and to have that security of knowing who’s going to pay for what and how.

And the way the scholarships is designed is it actually gives students, and it was really kind of a novel idea.

Many scholarships are fashioned this way now, but, like, they give them an allowance in order to travel during the summer, right?

And I’m an adventure addict. Like, I want to do stuff. I’m super curious.

And so like that to me is like the seller. Like I want those funds because I want to have the liberty to go and do something.

So there’s school, there’s room and board, there’s a stipend, and then there’s this fund.

And I just, I’m salivating because I really just want to go and poke around and look at things and learn other things, like almost like a Renaissance.

[25:25] And so that was such a tremendous uptick in my entire family’s tree.

Does it ever enter your mind that the reason you got that scholarship was because that committee was seeing something that, A, they had never seen before, and B, they probably wished that they could see more of?

And that is a brilliant young woman who was overcome with passion. You’re aware of that?

It’s kind of funny you say something like that because I never really even understood that I was passionate.

Passionate um i was just really driven and determined and hungry and stuff and it’s just really recently that people have even used that word around me and that i would even identify because it’s been so hard to describe what it is that sort of possesses me and then when people start throwing that word around i’m like i guess that’s the word you know i mean i feel really you know strongly about something and i really can’t i’m compelled and i can’t let it go but But I think it is kind of an energy, right?

And I have it. I have it. And it just thankfully hasn’t ever really waned or let me down.

But in that recognition, in that reality of having that energy is really where I’m super excited.

Because I think that energy is so extremely valuable in humanity and medicine. I mean, like…

[26:47] The best that we could come to describing it was to say some kids are gifted.

And I’m not saying like they’re savant or brilliant or special, but they just have a way of thinking.

And when they think about stuff, they’re enraptured and they are compelled and they turn things sideways and stuff.

And my point is, is as I learned more about myself and learned about this description that helped to identify and validate, I wanted to find these gifted kids and I wanted to bring them to medicine because I really think ultimately what we need and need to really protect is that channel of those people coming into this kind of occupation and problem solving because they do turn things in certain angles that really allow dimension and allow innovation and compassion in a way that is very complicated, like almost struggling.

[27:44] And, you know, compassion is an incredible emotion.

But I think sometimes if it’s tortured, it’s really more authentic because there’s right, there’s wrong, there’s what you can, what you should do.

But then there’s also just what you have to do to weigh out the lesser of evils and the best of the the best, hoping for the best.

And I really think that if gifted people had the courage to enter medicine, really understood their place and their validation within medicine, it would be incredible.

I think if you asked me what people saw when I was little, they saw that.

And back then, they may not have been able to really say that that would do anything to medicine, not the way that I would want to be very clear about it.

But I think they understood because because it feels complicated, and that respects the complexity of medicine.

Yeah, I think you’re exactly right about that. We hear a lot from admissions committees about what they would like to see in a medical student, and for whatever reason, they don’t seem to find that very often.

Maybe it’s because that particular character trait is unusual in people who are willing to study the sciences, but you’re clearly awash in it, and I want to, I really want to explore that some more.

[29:02] And we’ll come back to that subject, but I want to hear a little bit about what it was like for you when you got into medical school.

Now, this is something that you’ve been planning for since you were, literally since you were a child.

You elected to go to the Medical University of of South Carolina, a good choice.

So how did that come about? So it’s yet another chapter of happenstance.

So here I am at the University of Arizona.

Applying to Medical School and the Stress of Waiting

[29:30] And I’m doing my application for medical school. I’m applying broadly.

I end up interviewing and applying to the University of Arizona.

And so that’s actually where I did my medical school. But at the University of Arizona. I’m sorry, I got that wrong. I knew that, I promise.

Oh, no, it’s okay. Because it’s really kind of ironic how long I stayed at the U of A. Like, you know, so there, though, I remember just being really stressed out because I didn’t hear back for the longest time. And really, you know how they take.

You mean on your medical school application or? Yeah, yeah.

So they take the first round, the second round, the third round.

And we all know the dates. Like, we know that the third round is somewhere in March.

And if you don’t get anything by then, there’s nothing to be had.

And it’s looking slim pickings.

So I get my letter I swear on the last day of the last week that it’s possible and so I just I’m opening it I remember where I’m standing I remember my dad’s face and I’m reading it and it just seems impossible you know and I’m thinking thinking while I’m opening it that I gave away already the way in because I gave away that that early admission to Louisiana right so then I uh I open it and I read it and I read it I read out loud and I look at my dad and he can’t believe it it. And I can’t believe it.

So the whole thing just finally just explodes, you know, into this.

I got my cake and in it too. I got my childhood. I got my travels.

[30:56] I got my med school application in. Everything’s great.

Right. And I’m still super young. I’m like 20. Well, then a week later, I kid you not, I get another letter.

It’s a letter telling me that I’ve gotten the Dean scholarship and it’s a full ride.

So now I’ve got this full ride to med school.

I just don’t even know what to say. And had I taken that first chance.

[31:17] That first possibility, I would have missed out on so much more development, so much more to offer medicine.

[31:24] And then I definitely wouldn’t have had it paid for. So the whole thing is just amazing.

I can never thank all the series of events enough to bring me to a place where I’m going into med school debt-free, going out of med med school, debt-free.

It’s definitely my idea of the perfect storm is what you’re describing here. No, it’s tremendous.

Because to be honest with you, the insight that I have after all those gifts is something that, honestly, we don’t talk enough about.

And I know you’re so wanting to talk about me, but I’ve got to tell you, after all those turns, I will tell you, the biggest trauma to a working physician is the debt. Okay, the debt they carry is just so horrific.

And I’ll tell you why I know. Not because I have it. It’s because I don’t.

Have it right and so whenever people ask me how come i’m still in love with medicine i tell them because i owe more to it than it demands of me in debt okay like i i love medicine because i’m not under the heel the boot of a dollar sign bill that’s coming any minute now like my decisions are are made on principle rather than on practicality that’s a very generous way for you to think about that.

We’ve actually had a guest on the podcast who is in the business.

She’s not a physician, but she is in the business of helping people deal with the debt that they acquired and getting a medical education.

[32:49] And some people are, you know, 25 or 30 years post-grad. It just makes you, it makes you so bitter.

It’s just, yeah, it’s just shouldn’t be, but that’s, that’s a story for.

[33:00] Or a subject for another podcast.

I am interested now that you’ve gotten me back in the, in the correct location that once you were in medical school in Arizona State, did you feel like you really were at the right place?

So it’s incredible. Like, I love U of A because it just made sense.

But then also the medical school, again, I’m innocent, I’m naive, I don’t know.

And they’re so progressive and they just know so much ahead of time.

That place is incredibly innovative.

Like back in the early, or sorry, late 1900s or 1990s, And then the early 2000s, they were doing integrative medicine. They were doing holistic medicine.

They were talking about bringing in diversity.

They were having married couples, small families, early families, second careers.

We had classmates that were in their 40s. I mean, it’s strange, but the traditional student only made up, you know, a portion of the admitting class.

We weren’t just all straight out of college and straight into med school, 20-year-old, bright-eyed and, you know, opinionated. There are some people with some….

[34:10] Life experience and some diversity. And they really tried hard to, and they did it correctly, I think, because they had a really robust transitional program that allowed people who maybe would make good physicians, but wasn’t quite caught up yet because they just didn’t have the advantages and the privileges.

And so they helped to usher those people and safeguard them so that they could have presence within the community they served.

I mean, the whole thing was mastermind and it continues to perfect itself.

So when I re-engaged U of A for many different reasons, but also because my daughter now is down at the University of Arizona and she is also gifted in the way that she’s enrolled in their accelerated program.

[34:58] So she got early admission into their accelerated program two years ago.

So she’s in her second year now, but tapping into to what her experience is, and kind of what the program has become after 30 plus years, it has just increased its ability to diversify and to incorporate into their social science, a lot of very daring, very innovative type concepts.

So they just continue to grow this very robust, well rounded education.

So I never even knew that U of A was so great.

And then I started understanding what a great experience I had.

It’s really incredible, like best kept secret almost kind of thing.

You have encouraged my soul just to know that that’s going on somewhere because medical schools have been talking about that reality for a long time.

You know, if we’re going to create physicians, we really should try to create physicians that have some connection to humanity.

But very few of them seem to practice what they preach.

[35:59] You make it sound like they’re doing it right at the University of Arizona.

They’re doing it so organically. I think it’s because, quite frankly, the desert is sort of mystical and herbal and celestial.

I don’t know what it is. But it just has an atmosphere that allows for something other and that allows for these kinds of concepts to not feel like they’re uncomfortable against a very hard logic or something. think.

So it’s really been easily great to have graduated from there.

And so much so that I would, I just was excited if my daughter could go to U of A, let alone engage the medical school there. I think she would have a great experience.

So we have a whole lineage now. Yeah.

So, you know, and who, and who would think, I mean, you always want your kid to experience the great things that you’ve had, but I just am so excited for her as she’s engaging it with, with all that focus times, you know, 30 plus years of experience.

So they’ve really done a lot more than what I had.

And I was already very pleased with my experience there. Well, let’s shift the gears again.

Comes time for your postgraduate training.

And not only do you make a change in venue, but in your internship year at the Medical University of South Carolina, you choose to do a straight straight surgery internship.

[37:20] And I’ll bet you more than 99% of people that have heard the first part of this interview, if they were asked to guess what specialty you would be involved in surgery, it would probably be at the bottom of the list.

[37:33] So how did it come that you decided to do this straight surgery internship?

I’m a doer and I like to solve problems and I’m pretty bold.

I don’t mince words. I’m pretty direct. So, you know, surgery just fit me that And I found my people within the surgery department.

But I recognize that I’m not just that.

So I actually was interested in urology. But even in the early 2000s, urology is kind of a tough racket for a female.

So I end up scrambling, actually. actually.

And interestingly enough, the general surgeon at the department in Phoenix for U of A, Dr.

Stroh, he was just an incredible person.

And it was really kind of funny because I guess he was pretty hard up until the year I met him. So the year I met him, he somehow softened up.

I don’t know because people said he was unusually tender and they were all just sort of freaked out by how nice he was.

And I don’t know who he was before the year I met him.

He was an incredibly accomplished surgeon. But the year I met him, he was all that and super compassionate.

And so when I scrambled, he sat me down and he was so rooting for me.

He made phone calls on my behalf, called people he thought were just the top and got me a position at the Medical University of South Carolina.

Dr. Stones – Mentorship and Valuing Excellence

[38:58] And, you know, Dr. Stones passed last year in his 90s, but he was just an amazing mentor.

And he really believed in good people doing good things.

Again, not at all a stigma of sexism or racism or any of these things.

He just really liked to have top-notch people around him.

And so he was really supportive.

And so I ended up going to the Medical University of South Carolina for that first year. And that first year was just incredible in the way that it pushed me to such limits.

Like, I kind of want people to do the old way again, where they do do a year of surgery and then pick.

Pick because knowing that kind of skill and that kind of pace and having that kind of problem solving, it served me so well because I feel like it helped me to really explain and understand and bridge the two disciplines between surgery and medicine.

And I really enjoyed my colleagues.

I felt like they were some of the most misunderstood medical people ever because Because they spent so much of their time.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, you’re a surgeon. Yeah, so this is convenient. But, like, I feel like.

[40:16] It’s so funny because people have this very simple barrier to understanding why they don’t understand surgeons.

And I know because within the first month, I was trying to defend myself against one very simple reality.

[40:33] My patient contact was 99% while they were unconscious.

Unconscious yeah and my my my work with them and for them my devotion to an art and to their well-being was while they were unconscious like they have no relation no recollection no relationship with me whatsoever but i’m in there intimately with them and then later i’m trying to catch up i’m trying to catch them up and trying to make the most of a few minutes because you know know, again, I’ve got to go back and be with another unconscious person.

And so, you know, it’s, it’s this feeling like, oh, my surgeon never talks to me.

I’m like, they shouldn’t, you know, like they shouldn’t be valued for a conversation because honestly, they spend all of their time and energy and effort while you’re not part of the conversation.

And so it’s kind of this incredible insight that has led me to really always feel like a good surgeon isn’t a good talker, a good surgeon is a good doer.

But if he happens or she happens to be both, great, but also please respect their time because we need them to go deal with another unconscious person.

I think we might put that quote in the show notes.

[41:49] As you might imagine, I’m a fan of what you’re saying.

Oh, yeah. So I’m ever in love with both facets, But okay, so then somewhere through surgical residency or internship.

[42:03] And I got to tell you, I went to crazy limits physically, mentally, and I went to them happily, right?

But it was funny because I remember maxing out literally to the point where I fell asleep and the story goes no one could wake me.

Like they just left me. They just left me. And then I wake up.

I don’t know why, but I startle awake and it’s like I don’t know where I am.

I don’t know how I got there. I don’t know what time it is.

It’s really hard to catch up. I finally figure out it’s like literally 10 o’clock, which is 10am is midday for a surgeon.

And I can’t find my team. I don’t know where they’ve gone. You know, they’ve all dispersed.

I finally find one guy and I said, What happened? You know, like, did I die?

What happened? He said, You just you just passed out and couldn’t wake up.

And I said, And then what? And he goes, Let me just left you.

And I’m like, Is that okay?

You know, is someone going to to be, it’s going to be mad about that.

And then they slide right in and finish the day and keep going.

And no one ever speaks of it.

Right. But then I thought, I don’t know that I can do that. Like, I don’t know if I just going to pass out if that’s a good idea.

And then a couple of rotations later, I’m, I’m doing a rotation with urology, which is again, the thing that I was aiming to do. And we just finished a case.

We’re doing some rounds in between cases.

[43:23] Some patient who has, and she’s very young, has renal cell carcinoma and she has questions.

Okay. So then I break off from the group. I spend some time with her and I just remember everything about that room.

And as I’m leaving, my mid-level catches me and says, what are you doing?

I said, oh, you know, I was talking to so-and-so. She had questions.

He says, what are you doing? I said, I was talking to so-and-so.

She had questions. He says, we don’t do that.

[43:51] And I said, I said, I get that. I get that we don’t do that but you know I was I was doing this thing that honestly like who else is going to do it right like she had surgical questions and uh prognosticating questions and what now questions and he said well we don’t do that and I said okay so what do you want me to do and he goes don’t ever do that again, And I don’t think he was doing me a disservice. And I don’t vilify him.

I think he was telling me what would be mostly true if I chose surgery is that I would have to defer that kind of intimacy.

[44:24] And that was the minute that I realized that surgery was not going to work for me because I do a lot of verbal processing and I do a lot of intimacy connection through verbal processing.

It would always cheat me and the patient. And so like I’m not a technician, not that I’m relegating surgeons to just that, but it’s not satisfying enough for me. I can’t let it go.

I can’t stop talking. So if that’s true, then I’m not going to be happy and they’re not going to be happy working with me because I’m going to talk too much. It’s very insightful.

You know, I’m not going to say it can’t be done.

[45:02] I’d like to think that I was one of those surgeons that would give the patient as much time as they needed.

Oh, no, there were those guys. Yeah, you have to figure out a way.

You got to figure out a way to do it. I’ll even do you one better. I’ll do you one better.

So my department, or not my department head, but my residency director, he was incredible in the way that he was almost hypnotic, like a Jedi.

Like he would walk into a room when we were around, and we would give him, you know, the vitals, the spiel, whatever information he wanted.

And he would go in, you know how they do it. And they go in and the patient would just be enraptured by their presence and his presence.

And then he would put his fingers together, like in that very Mr.

Spock way. And he would stare at them as they’re finishing.

Like he would just let them finish. And for some reason, they knew to curtail it. Like we would hear 30 minutes of ranting. He would get 30 seconds.

And they would look to him like with anticipation of an answer.

And he would say, I kid you not, that sounds like a problem. him.

And then he would just evaporate. And we would all just stand there in this wake of comfort.

[46:12] And it was crazy because he had done everything by doing nothing and saying very little.

And I don’t know how he was so gifted, but that guy was a unique specimen.

I was like, I’ll never have that gift. I’ll never be able to say nothing and mean everything.

The patient was completely at at peace, accepted everything, not even knowing what they signed on.

That was a gifted surgeon.

He said nothing and left the room at peace.

And of course, I’ve had many other mentors that, like you say, balance just enough and somehow have the choice words and things like that.

But like me, again, I’m a verbal processor.

So I’m zeroing in on what I… So it takes me like five Five times longer to say whatever it is that’s on my mind because I’m searching around for the right word or the right metaphor.

[47:05] Well, that happens in medicine. Well, yeah, you’re kind of right on top of my next question.

Once you shifted over to internal medicine for years two through four, did you feel like you were in the right place or was it still a little bit? No, no.

I mean, like, again, I’m a doer and I’m direct.

And so I don’t like too much pussyfooting. But when it came to talking to patients, I would spend, you know, that length of time.

So the medical part of it, the discovery part of it, the action deliberation part of it, that’s like a surgeon.

But the intimacy part of it is like a medical doctor.

So it was really also a foreign land. But in the long run, what was really kind of funny is finding what subspecialty I was going to do.

Because that really ultimately perfectly bloomed who I am and how I feel like it’ll always be happy. So absolute primary care, internal medicine was not really ever a consideration for you?

So there are lots of people that are very comfortable doing general.

And then in being able to do general, like say family practice, they can really develop relationships in all spectrums of life, right? And so I’m terrible at children.

Like I’m no good because I want children to be like adults, even if they have to be little adults. I want them to be adults. That’s not much to ask.

Choosing Internal Medicine and Subspecializing in Nephrology

[48:25] Yeah. Yeah, so I’m not going to do pediatrics, and I can’t do family because I actually am terrible with children.

And so I want to doctor adults, and so then I go into internal medicine.

But even then, I’m not a good generalist because it’s not enough.

I don’t feel good when I don’t know enough about the thing I’m talking about.

So it was great to have the general approach.

[48:49] Experience everywhere. And I tried to do GI and cardiology and pulmonary like it would be my subspecialty.

So I tried to get enough of it so I could answer the depth of question that I would be approached with.

But in the end, I needed a subspecialized.

And that’s okay, I think, to admit, because a lot of people just do better when they have one area of focus and a broad knowledge, but a one area of focus.

And what was the appeal of nephrology in that list of So, you know, there’s all this underdog kind of feeling, and I’m kind of somewhere in me like an underdog, like the GU system is sort of just an underdog system. The kidney is sort of like a bastard organ.

And so, like, in that mystery, in that ambiguity, in that literally fear for the organ, I was like, oh, I’ll just go champion the little guy.

So I go and champion the kidneys, but also in all of that very microscopic understanding, you have to really love minutia.

Like you have to love it. Like the details matter to you and running down an electrolyte to counterbalance some sort of gradation, that’s going to be like really exciting for you.

[50:03] So, you know, nephrology, it’s sort of weird. If you meet someone that likes it, you just get supercharged.

And then it’s this weird conversation that nobody’s following.

And they’re just either laughing at inside jokes or, you know, geeking out on something.

It’s really kind of oddball. And so there’s all these…

These oddballs in nephrology and and they really are just this huge collection of thinkers you know they just think a lot and they don’t even care to justify what they’re thinking about and whatever they’re thinking about could be super super important or not at all but it all looks super important right like like it’s it’s got the weight of uh the world on it this little detail right and And they all have this strange satisfaction when they figured out where this electrolyte went.

[50:56] It’s really kind of funny. You know, we get really excited when we’re like, oh, I found it. You know, like a little needle in a haystack.

And then they all just, you know, go on their merry way, super excited, super fulfilled.

And I akin to that. I like that. I like it when everything’s accounted for and everything has a mathematical, scientific logic.

That is exactly my notion of what nephrology is all about. Oh, yeah. It has great appeal for me. Unfortunately, I’m not very good at it.

Well, that’s actually the other part of it, right? Because not being ever super great at it means you can do it all over again, over and over again for the rest of your life. So there really is no expiration date, right?

[51:39] I’ve thought of it that way. Actually, I’m actually never done like it’s really bizarre and I’ve told other patients, you know They always ask me like why because they see me just sort of an other an extra oddball as a nephrologist But I tell them I said, you know you ever see that comedy act where they’re spinning plates and They’re spinning all these plates and then one starts to wobble and one’s going faster than the other and the other one’s kind of this high and this low and way over here and you’re spinning plates and Conceptually, that’s how you look at the nephron, right? You look at the nephron, and you’re tracing all these electrolytes and channels, and you’re spinning these plates, and just about the time you conceptualize four, then six, then eight, because you know there’s 20 that you have to get to really get the full vantage point of the nephron, plates are going to fall.

And so you run back to grab that fourth concept, that third concept, you’re losing focus on that eighth concept.

You’re so close, you’re about 16 or so, and the 20th one is just around around the corner, it’s gone.

It’s gone. Like something happened. Someone’s interrupted your train of thought.

And so then you start all over again and you don’t mind it. You don’t mind starting all over again.

And you’ll do that all day long as a mental masturbation. Like, so, so a nephrologist truly, if you ever see at a conference, a bunch of nephrologists, they’re secretly mentally masturbating.

[52:57] Well, you know, that’s, uh, uh, although very humorous, I think it’s a remarkable or remarkably apt way to describe exactly what you’re talking about.

And I have to say, I might have been a little outlier in my own experience.

I always really got a big kick out of critical care, which in my days of practice, you had an opportunity to do a good bit of that because there were, you know, there were no intensivist and that kind of nonsense.

But I know what you’re talking about. No, it’s the same. Same.

And I tell you, like the critical care part of it, that’s where we’ll have a lot of great conversations across the different specialties and stuff like that.

But I’ll even tell you the critical care part of it, because, you know, again, I’m surgically inclined, I liked doing those procedures and stuff.

Eventually, when I was seduced by nephrology, it was like those procedures got in the way, took up time from thinking.

[53:47] So then I’m like, Oh, I got to interrupt my thinking to do this procedure.

And so I can’t be a critical care doctor, because I really don’t feel like the procedures are, you know, know, like this, this break from thinking, I think it’s an interruption from thinking.

So then I just want to go think. So if you wanted to akin us to anyone, we’re more like philosophers.

[54:05] Think a lot, don’t really do much, just think and think.

And then finally it’s the same answer, but for like a very lengthy reason.

And nobody, I mean, people have lost interest halfway through our rationale and I get it, but you find another nephrologist to talk to, they could talk forever about much about nothing.

Right. So yeah, it’s, it’s kind of a funny racket.

I do want to talk a little bit about your practice experience before I talk to you some about your or writing experience, which I’m really fascinated with.

But your practice, is it primarily dialysis or critical care?

[54:41] Where do you focus your efforts now that you’re established in your practice?

My job is a dream job. I really think it is. And it brought me back home to Arizona.

So that was definitely something I wanted to do, to be with my family.

But also, Also, I actually applied for my job before my fellowship.

So I was finishing my residency.

I was accepted into my fellowship also at the Medical University of South Carolina.

And I applied for the job contingent on me completing my fellowship.

And so it’s really kind of unorthodox. But I knew I was coming home.

I knew who the players were. And I knew what I wanted out of a practice.

And it was already kind of being conceptualized. And so I obtained my job, signed my contract, did my fellowship, completed my fellowship, and then came home.

And so it was already kind of a foretold conclusion of practicing where I’m at.

So I’m saying I was devoted to it even before I had even did my first day of fellowship.

[55:43] In my devotion, I wanted a very balanced practice, and it definitely is already kind of locked and loaded that way.

So I have a general practice that I do office-based. I have hospital privileges that I do consulting.

And then we do have dialysis units, dialysis patients.

And then mixed in is transplant patients who are undergoing transplant or have completed and are living with transplant.

So the whole thing is a full general practice. So you’re doing the whole shebang. way.

[56:12] Yeah. And that’s pretty typical, right? Most people train and they like it all and they want to keep it all.

But also that allows you to really journey with the patient from what we would call cradle to death, because that’s definitely where the patient starts.

They stop off at CKD or acute renal, and then they end up hopefully having the opportunity to do transplant or needing dialysis and doing it well for some period of time.

So you really want to do the full gamut it so that you can provide the full picture for a patient.

So you are really quite literally living the dream.

Yeah, I think so. I mean, like, it’s been really fortunate that it’s afforded the dream, but, and it’s kind of funny because I really didn’t even know what to dream.

I just knew I needed to come home and I needed a practice that would allow me the space to practice rather than the manage.

Cause there are people who are entrepreneurs in medicine and they are people people that really have a knack for self-guidance and self-management and practice building.

I’m a practice builder in the fact that I can network, but I do not want to manage. That’s not a skill set for me.

Well, you’re clearly, you found a way to be very successful at that.

And before we get away, and we’ve used up a lot of your time here, but I do want to ask you about one other thing before we close it out.

Discovering Writing Talent and the Ethos of Medicine

[57:29] You are just an uncommonly gifted writer.

I’ve seen the things that you have put into Physician Outlook magazine.

I’ve also seen your blog site, which, by the way, you haven’t put anything on your blog site in a long time, Ethos of Medicine.

You need to get back to that. I’m giving you a little push here.

But are you aware of how talented you are, and is it something that you were kind of born with, or did you work hard at it? What’s the story on this writing gig?

I always did some writing, and I really do think, again, the Magnet School.

In Louisiana for allowing me that opportunity to explore.

And I always did poetry, but it was never serious because I was a scientist first.

[58:16] And devoted to science. But writing kind of came back to me after the first five years of being a nephrologist arrived me at a place where, you know, you’re at the pinnacle, and now you just have to sit still.

And that’s sort of a thing that you have to learn how to do.

And at this pinnacle, I kind of just blank out for a couple of years.

And I don’t even know what’s happening, happening except it’s really kind of mundane.

And then I start looking at what I’m doing more actively. And I start looking at the patients, like not just going through the motions.

And it’s at that point that something happens. They become tangible only because they’re stories to be told.

And so now I can’t help but write about them or write about the experience in a general way or in in a offsides kind of way.

And so now it’s a compulsion. It’s a compulsion to write.

And it’s kind of safeguarding me from burnout. And it’s actually helping me to focus on what it is that I’m doing when I’m so intimate.

And so the words are kind of medicine to me in practicing medicine, but also just free flowing.

They’re really possessive. So something will happen and I’ll get triggered.

And it’s usually something somebody says, and it’s so so perfectly said, or the environment that it starts being told in is just perfect.

And I’m compelled.

[59:44] And it’s, I’ve heard people say that when you get a story in you, it’s almost rapturing, and you have to stop what you’re doing and write it down feverishly.

Otherwise, it might, it might escape, right.

And so that was happening a lot, like I would have to stop what I was doing, or pull over or wake up in the middle of the night.

And so then it was just constant like that. And I loved it.

I would look for it. I would will it because it just seemed to be so instrumental in doing medicine the right way.

So I started doing that. And the whole blog thing is really kind of funny because I’m really…

[1:00:24] Very systematic. Like I want to put it somewhere, right? But like, I don’t have time to edit.

I don’t have time to actually cut and paste things and, you know, reformat them and stuff like that. I actually don’t want to edit.

I’m not actually interested in contriving the story. I just want it to be born.

And I know it should be put somewhere because I think that it shouldn’t be lost.

Like a lot of it is, it comes from a desire to honor a moment or honor a person or truly tell other people they’re not alone or not forget something because it just seems like if somebody forgot this story and many others, it would just be so terrible for humanity to just never know about it, never get that insight or validation.

[1:01:08] So I’m trying to put it somewhere, but really the whole time, because people say things like, oh, you know, that’s amazing.

That’s moving. That’s great. I just, I feel that too.

And I’ve had that experience, but I couldn’t put put it down.

And I’m not sure what these stories are supposed to do.

I mean, they do have face value, but I don’t know if they have more than that.

And that, that, that perplexes me because I feel like they were supposed to do something.

And, you know, I don’t want to be arrogant because I think it ruins the whole, the whole purpose of them.

Like I really want them to be persistently naive about something at the same time.

So anyway, my point is, is I have this five, eight year period where I’m just even trying to figure out what these stories are supposed to do and during that time people are saying do something with them and I say I know but just wait it’d be like taking a cake out too soon you know just wait something’s not right.

[1:01:59] And then truly, this whole interview invitation was instrumental in me understanding a little bit more about what these stories are and what my writing is supposed to be.

And I hope I hope it really does pan out this way.

I get a little bit nervous to say it this way, but like it’s kind of funny because I’m I’m getting really close to understanding something about them.

And as you know, I’m sort of increasingly fascinated by gifted minds and gifted students and kind of gifted learning to the point where I’m thinking I should go back and get certified and try to engage these gifted learners.

But I don’t want to just engage any gifted learners. I want to attract them to medicine.

And about that time, you know, your producer, she invites me to this interview with you. And I’m so excited because I’m like, oh, yeah, I’m curious.

And, you know, you do coaching and I’m sort of curious about what that is, because, you know, I think medicine does coaching or coaching like type things.

[1:02:53] And so I start finding out more about this interview, but also about coaching.

And then it just completely dawns on me how it all fits together.

OK, and a lot of people would be like, it does not fit together like that.

And I think, no, no, just wait, just wait. Just just let me show you. OK, like it really does.

OK, and I don’t want to necessarily tell you because then I feel like it’s inorganic, but like it’s OK, I can tell you. So here’s how it works.

I think that these stories, they are and I don’t know if I’ve ever put anywhere where people can see it.

But like like the real ones that I feel like that do this are unique in the way that they just give you that little freeze on.

They give you like this tingle and what’s incredible about the stories is not just the intimacy and the vulnerability and the invitation and the privilege of being in that moment.

[1:03:45] Is doctoring. Okay. And I’m so proud of my profession and the people that I work with, but doctoring is a kind of complex coaching.

And I know coaching is not the same thing as advising. And I know doctors do advise, but I’m talking about like tapping into people and why they do stuff and then, you know, moving it over into medicine and something so intimate, like their personal body and their mental health.

But like doctoring is a kind of coach like skillset.

The Power of Stories in Medicine

[1:04:14] And find your patient and find the truth of something and find their growth and their needs and their wants and marry it with what’s possible and what’s nearly impossible or super scary.

And so then it all comes to me that my stories, if I just shared them in that context and invited people to read about people, which are very validating for themselves and for the world around them, but also validate medicine and what I hope to also preserve about doctoring as it’s getting reinvented and redefined, but invite gifted students who would see the parts of my story that really are like them, you know, because they turn things sideways and then tell them what I want you to do in medicine is learn how to be a really great medical coach in the way that you’re trying to coach about humanity and validate humanity and human existence.

I mean, from cradle to grave in that way that it’s an experience.

And it’s an experience that doesn’t have black and white answers.

It’s make it up as you go, make it up with who you’re with.

[1:05:21] So when you asked me about the power of my stories, they finally have power, but in a context that involves others, that involves those to come, that truly involves the profession.

Okay, okay, the story was, was not enough. Like me being a good writer only had some very superficial satisfaction.

I’m not, I’m not saying I’m not grateful for readers. I could just take one, one reader to read it and say that mattered to me, um, that spoke to me.

And it’s not even the person I wrote it about. It’s usually someone that had a similar experience or couldn’t put into words what it was that they were tapping into.

That wasn’t enough because it just seemed to not honor what I was trying to encapsulate.

Like doctoring is such a, I mean, I get emotional because there’s these moments and you know about them and everyone that’s listening or will choose to listen to this podcast will know about these moments when you’re just sitting there and you’re just absolutely stripped and so, so humbled by something that is so raw and so genuine and so so magnanimous, but yet so frail and so vulnerable.

And you wonder, what the heck? You know, what am I going to do? How can I be given this?

[1:06:36] Job or privilege to handle this very delicate moment.

You just try so hard to be careful and you love so deeply and you take all of everything you’ve ever learned and everything that you think you know or will hope to understand and you just try to make something better, not hurt so much.

Maybe do better in a day, a week, a year before they die.

It’s so incredible and it’s not a God complex.

It’s not. You’re just so, so human at that moment that you’re not God.

You’re so pathetically not God. And yet here you are tasked with this other human life.

I just can’t tell you why I’m so excited totally, except that I think that people would then just begin to understand what it means to join the profession.

Well, you have eloquently answered the questions and or question I’m not surprised at your eloquence if you ever find yourself asking why you write I think you only need to turn to Ralph Waldo Emerson who said his eyes were made for seeing then beauty is its own excuse for being and you’re quite an embodiment of that.

[1:07:57] Of that advice. Jean, this has been just an amazing conversation.

I wish I had the eloquence to tell you how much I’ve enjoyed it.

But at this point, that’s all I can say.

[1:08:12] Before we go, I’m going to give you an opportunity to be on your own, and I’ll stay out of the way.

Personal Prescriptions for Success in Medicine

[1:08:21] So, audience, please give heed. Indeed, Dr. Jean Roby is going to give us her personal prescriptions for success.

[1:08:29] Hi, it’s so great to be with you and tell you some things that I’ve learned or have understood a little bit better having done medicine for over 20 years now. I loved it before it loved me.

And I think having that devotion and affection for it has made me able to get up in the middle of night for strangers to answer questions for the third time.

I’m not perfect. I get frustrated and it’s okay.

Like I’ve learned that part of the success in medicine is to allow for the emotions and then to learn how to set them aside and be a sober co-pilot.

I always tell my patients that right now I’m the sober driver, but make no mistake about it.

When I leave this room, my heart will be broken and I will be hoping and struggling with you.

That connection has allowed them to immediately tell me things they would never tell anyone else.

Admit things they would never admit to anyone else, and find a clarity that I think will help them make decisions faster and better.

Ultimately, my prescription for success in medicine is the same prescription I have for success in life.

[1:09:52] Self-awareness is so important and helping others to become self-aware is so important.

And finally, there are many things that we can doctor, many things that we can fix, but regret is not one of them.

And I tell patients all the time, whatever you do, never have collateral damage or leave regret because I cannot give a pill for that or talk that away. way.

And if they can live with that heed, then really even the hardest journeys are made that much better.

And they know it. They know it. Not because they did both journeys, but because the one they’re on, they could conceptualize better.

And so when we choose medicine and we choose to be successful in medicine against all its countercurrents, don’t regret the things that that you do.

Do them with love and do them with purpose and really be intimate because it’s such a privilege and honor that intimacy.

I think it’s going to be great to see each and every one of you ever because then I’ll know, we’ll make eye contact.

I’ll know that you love it like I love it. And that’s my prescription for success in medicine. A lot of wisdom there.

You’re reminding Reminding us about the importance of self-awareness. You’re reminding us…

[1:11:19] There really is no room for regret anywhere That’s a powerful statement And honoring the intimacy Boy, that’s a big one, So, wow, I don’t know what to say Other than thank you For sharing with us today Gene, before we go, I want to give you An opportunity to, Tell the audience Where you can be found If you’d like to share email addresses Or Facebook Handles or whatever You’ve got, websites sites?

[1:11:49] Anything you want to offer us? Everything I have is sort of both professional and personal, and it just blurs anyways.

So they can find me on Facebook under Jean Roby.

I do have that blog site, but like you said, I just have not babied it as much as I really should to even be anything that people should log into.

But that’s at Ethos of Medicine. I’m happy if people email me, no problem and it’s a funny email it’s peeling celery at gmail.com uh and the story behind that is nobody ever forgets it but also apparently when you’re real serious about cooking celery you’re supposed to peel it nobody does that but like apparently you’re supposed to so i always feel like um it’s a funny reminder that that the thing that people don’t think about doing is It’s usually the thing that you’re supposed to be doing anyway.

So, you know, I think it honors this sentiment that I always hold dear, that we’re the bigger, better people if we really choose to be.

So, yeah, they can find me there at peelingcelery at gmail.com.

Dr. Jean Roby, who is an accomplished nephrologist, an incredible writer, and has the most unique email address on earth, thank you so much for being on Prescription for Success. Thank you so much, T. Ray.

Show Conclusion and Call to Action

[1:13:08] Thank you so much for listening with us today. If you enjoyed the show, you can help us reach more listeners by leaving a rating and a review, especially on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

And if your app doesn’t have that option, just leave us an email or a voicemail through SpeakPipe at www.rxforsuccesspodcast.com.

You can also help by becoming a Patreon member. That link is in the show notes.

And we hope you’ll also follow our companion podcast, Life-Changing Moments with Dr. Dale Waxman.

Special thanks to our producer, Craig Clausen, our promotions manager, Mariana Rodabaugh, and to Ryan Jones, who created and performs our theme music.

And remember, be sure to fill your prescription for success with my next episode.

[1:14:02] Music.